Dear D,
It was a pleasure to receive your letter and a great delight to read it.
People have wanted to see God for a long time. They cannot, not because of their human limitations but because if they could see Him, He would not be God. He would be another idol, a creation of man.
There are Christians who fit your description. Some of them are not true Christians. Millions of Christians are not rigorous in the reasoning because they have just been saved out of hatred, idolatry, murder, drunkenness into having joy, peace, forgiveness and forgiving. They want others to join them.
These are much better ways to arrive at truth than logic and reasoning:
• Revelation: Man is not a cause, but he has been a recipient.
• Empiricism: Theory, experiments of the theory. The results, fact or not fact.
• Observation: This has the difficulty observing facts from a biased position. This bias does not change the facts, but it might change our perception of the,.
• 1 Corinthians 2:12-15: The Spirit of God within us.
You use the word faith in defining Christians. I certainly would not use it in that way. I would use a word that is a good word to you: truth. There is another good word, grace, and many others: love, kindness, joy, patience.
Yes, I am interested in truth. You are interested in truth. We have a difficulty, not with us, but with untruth-tellers, liars. A liar says that he is telling the truth, and a truth-teller says that he is telling the truth. It is up to the listener to know the difference between the two.
One of the ways to know is the character of the teller. You see this in the old Professor's question to Peter and Susan in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: “Who is more likely to be the one who tells 'whoppers', Edmund or Lucy?”
Let me quote a few verses to bring them back to your attention.
The expression “I tell you the truth” shows up about 80 times in the four gospels.
It sounds like you think this is unfair, not a level playing field. Suppose for an instant that the gospel is true, but God wants to be fair and provide a level playing field. I re-word His instructions as follows: “Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and repentance and forgiveness of sins are now available to all nations. I want you to train thousands of Christians in thousands of languages, in thousands of villages, to conduct reasoning discussion groups on the possibility of Christ's death and resurrection, repentance and forgiveness be accepted as truth.”
God did not send Christians to dialog.
The animist Hindus, Muslims, cannibals, etc., are not moral humanists or intellectuals wanting discussions. Good news, forgiveness of sins, and everlasting life has to be broadcast, published, proclaimed, and preached. It would immoral to keep silent as well as disobedient to the One to whom all authority in Heaven and Earth has been given.
Concerning your expression “an honest skeptic who was enamored of truth,” I suppose it would depend on which of the words is more important to you, “skeptic” or “truth.” Most skeptics are strongly attached to being skeptics. If truth is more important, then that person would no longer be a skeptic when truth is presented to him.
Here are a few expressions from the Bible that touch on this subject:
“When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples, 'The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field'” (Matt. 9:36-38). More people want in the kingdom than there are Christians who want them in.
If you are right, then there is no such thing as a real Christian. He is deceived. If you are right, then you were not a Christian until you were nineteen. You were also deceived. However, if there is such a thing as a Christian (a person in whom Jesus Christ dwells, with love, joy, peace, who loves his neighbor, and who loves his enemy), then there might not be as many Christians as there are those who make the profession of being Christians. Many “born again” Christians have not been born again. If there is such a thing, you might have been one. If so, you still are a Christian. The old covenant was a two-way covenant. The new covenant is one way only. God keeps His word even if the person no longer believes! “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24). “Hears” present tense, “believes” present tense, and “has” present tense. The everlasting life does not end.
On the other hand, you might have been an evangelical, cultural Christian and not one in whom Jesus Christ dwells. That is an easier explanation for where you are now. I do not know.
You made two statements that seem contradictory to me. “There is such a thing as sin” as an accusation against of the Christians. Earlier you wrote, “Yes, I am a highly moral secular humanist.” I suppose that you would recognize that most of the world is made up of immoral secular people and immoral religious people. Would you use the words “evil,” “wicked,” and “criminal” but just not use the word “sin”? We did not invent the word “sin” or the practice of it.
Jesus came into this world in order to die for people who have sinned. Every one has sinned. Sin is the common denominator in this world. If He only died for intellectuals, then He did not die for many people.
No, I am not against reason or logic. However, reason, no matter how clear it is, does not bring people to repentance (sometimes, maybe).
There was a time when I was rigorous in my reasoning. I found out that I could win arguments and not win people.
Paul's conversion is described three times in the book of Acts, in chapters 9, 22, and 26. This was revelation, not reason. He could reason. He chose not to.
I have two other difficulties with reason as a premise. Reason or logic is a process of thinking between a premise and a conclusion. It cannot be a premise when it only proceeds from a premise.
Your other statement was, “No Christian commits themselves fully to the care of logic; that would require them to start from a null hypothesis, and defend their belief syllogisticaly until they arrive at the conclusion of God, which cannot be done.”
You are a seeker of truth and demand that a Christian do something your way to convince you there is a God, which you know cannot be done. You only want to know truth if it ends up being no God.
I have in front of me Che, The Making of a Legend by Martin Ebon. You mentioned the political idealism of Che Guevara, Utopia, and the Manifesto. You did not mention the practitioners of these ideals: Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Castro, and Cambodia, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany, and North Korea.
This is longer than planned. As you figured out, I will do it the way Jesus and Paul did it and commanded. I will also play dirty - I will pray.
With much affection,
Jim
It was a pleasure to receive your letter and a great delight to read it.
People have wanted to see God for a long time. They cannot, not because of their human limitations but because if they could see Him, He would not be God. He would be another idol, a creation of man.
There are Christians who fit your description. Some of them are not true Christians. Millions of Christians are not rigorous in the reasoning because they have just been saved out of hatred, idolatry, murder, drunkenness into having joy, peace, forgiveness and forgiving. They want others to join them.
These are much better ways to arrive at truth than logic and reasoning:
• Revelation: Man is not a cause, but he has been a recipient.
• Empiricism: Theory, experiments of the theory. The results, fact or not fact.
• Observation: This has the difficulty observing facts from a biased position. This bias does not change the facts, but it might change our perception of the,.
• 1 Corinthians 2:12-15: The Spirit of God within us.
You use the word faith in defining Christians. I certainly would not use it in that way. I would use a word that is a good word to you: truth. There is another good word, grace, and many others: love, kindness, joy, patience.
Yes, I am interested in truth. You are interested in truth. We have a difficulty, not with us, but with untruth-tellers, liars. A liar says that he is telling the truth, and a truth-teller says that he is telling the truth. It is up to the listener to know the difference between the two.
One of the ways to know is the character of the teller. You see this in the old Professor's question to Peter and Susan in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: “Who is more likely to be the one who tells 'whoppers', Edmund or Lucy?”
Let me quote a few verses to bring them back to your attention.
The expression “I tell you the truth” shows up about 80 times in the four gospels.
“he Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)There are many other references to the Truth in the Bible. If they are untrue, then they are false.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
The faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. (Col. 1:5-6)
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. (1 Tim. 4:3)
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1 Cor. 15:12-19)Truth must be spoken in kindness, gentleness, and love. Truth, by definition, is not up for discussion. It is a given. It can be rejected. It should not be negotiated or compromised. If so, it ceases to be true.
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. (Eph. 4:15)
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? (Rom. 2:4)This is good news; it is to be proclaimed and preached to all nations.
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. (2 Tim. 2:23-26)
He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47)
It sounds like you think this is unfair, not a level playing field. Suppose for an instant that the gospel is true, but God wants to be fair and provide a level playing field. I re-word His instructions as follows: “Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and repentance and forgiveness of sins are now available to all nations. I want you to train thousands of Christians in thousands of languages, in thousands of villages, to conduct reasoning discussion groups on the possibility of Christ's death and resurrection, repentance and forgiveness be accepted as truth.”
God did not send Christians to dialog.
The animist Hindus, Muslims, cannibals, etc., are not moral humanists or intellectuals wanting discussions. Good news, forgiveness of sins, and everlasting life has to be broadcast, published, proclaimed, and preached. It would immoral to keep silent as well as disobedient to the One to whom all authority in Heaven and Earth has been given.
Concerning your expression “an honest skeptic who was enamored of truth,” I suppose it would depend on which of the words is more important to you, “skeptic” or “truth.” Most skeptics are strongly attached to being skeptics. If truth is more important, then that person would no longer be a skeptic when truth is presented to him.
Here are a few expressions from the Bible that touch on this subject:
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. (Jer. 29:13)Many years ago, a Presbyterian pastor told me that he was agnostic about the resurrection of Jesus. Then he added, “What's more, I do not think it is important.” It did not bother me that he was agnostic about the resurrection. It was his second sentence that made no sense. If he did not know whether it was true, he was in no position to determine its importance. In the same way, a skeptic should not have the final say on what is true. He is the last person to find out (if he finds out at all).
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Heb. 11:6)
Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know. (Jer. 33:3)
Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. (Isa. 65:24)
“When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples, 'The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field'” (Matt. 9:36-38). More people want in the kingdom than there are Christians who want them in.
If you are right, then there is no such thing as a real Christian. He is deceived. If you are right, then you were not a Christian until you were nineteen. You were also deceived. However, if there is such a thing as a Christian (a person in whom Jesus Christ dwells, with love, joy, peace, who loves his neighbor, and who loves his enemy), then there might not be as many Christians as there are those who make the profession of being Christians. Many “born again” Christians have not been born again. If there is such a thing, you might have been one. If so, you still are a Christian. The old covenant was a two-way covenant. The new covenant is one way only. God keeps His word even if the person no longer believes! “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24). “Hears” present tense, “believes” present tense, and “has” present tense. The everlasting life does not end.
On the other hand, you might have been an evangelical, cultural Christian and not one in whom Jesus Christ dwells. That is an easier explanation for where you are now. I do not know.
You made two statements that seem contradictory to me. “There is such a thing as sin” as an accusation against of the Christians. Earlier you wrote, “Yes, I am a highly moral secular humanist.” I suppose that you would recognize that most of the world is made up of immoral secular people and immoral religious people. Would you use the words “evil,” “wicked,” and “criminal” but just not use the word “sin”? We did not invent the word “sin” or the practice of it.
Jesus came into this world in order to die for people who have sinned. Every one has sinned. Sin is the common denominator in this world. If He only died for intellectuals, then He did not die for many people.
No, I am not against reason or logic. However, reason, no matter how clear it is, does not bring people to repentance (sometimes, maybe).
There was a time when I was rigorous in my reasoning. I found out that I could win arguments and not win people.
Paul's conversion is described three times in the book of Acts, in chapters 9, 22, and 26. This was revelation, not reason. He could reason. He chose not to.
I have two other difficulties with reason as a premise. Reason or logic is a process of thinking between a premise and a conclusion. It cannot be a premise when it only proceeds from a premise.
Your other statement was, “No Christian commits themselves fully to the care of logic; that would require them to start from a null hypothesis, and defend their belief syllogisticaly until they arrive at the conclusion of God, which cannot be done.”
You are a seeker of truth and demand that a Christian do something your way to convince you there is a God, which you know cannot be done. You only want to know truth if it ends up being no God.
I have in front of me Che, The Making of a Legend by Martin Ebon. You mentioned the political idealism of Che Guevara, Utopia, and the Manifesto. You did not mention the practitioners of these ideals: Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Castro, and Cambodia, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany, and North Korea.
This is longer than planned. As you figured out, I will do it the way Jesus and Paul did it and commanded. I will also play dirty - I will pray.
With much affection,
Jim
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